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tv   MSNBC News Live  MSNBC  December 1, 2009 3:00pm-4:00pm EST

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insurance. mark potter is outside the police headquarters in orlando, florida. we started out the day with tiger woods' neighbor, his attorney speaking out for him saying that basically, tiger woods looked like he had not been beaten up with a golf club that he had scratches on his face that were consistent with someone in a minor accident. what are we expecting on what we might hear today from the florida state patrol? >> that attorney's statement, no way he could have known what was talking about in that regard or clients know that it was late at night, how did they know whether those were injuries from a domestic incident or from a steering wheel, never explained how they could tell the difference. that aside, however. here at this news conference, we were expecting major cindy -- >> mark, let me interrupt you, police are at the podium. mark, i apologize, let's listen in to sergeant kim montes and major cindy williams. i would like to introduce major cindy williams, troop commander for troop d. >> good afternoon. we appreciate your attendance here today. flat highway patrol has
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concluded its investigation of the vehicle crash involving mr. tiger woods. the investigation has determined that mr. woods is at fault in the crash. this afternoon, fhp is in the process of issuing a uniform traffic citation for careless driving to mr. woods. any person operating a vehicle upon the streets or highways within the state is required by law to drive in a careful and prudent manner. so as not to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. failure to drive in such a manner is defined as careless driving. careless driving is a moving violation and upon conviction, may result in a fine of $164 and four points on a driving record. this was a single-vehicle crash with a single occupant.
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unfortunately it someone of thousands that occurs in our state each year. mr. woods has satisfied the requirements of florida law by providing his driver's license, registration and proof of insurance to us. with the issuance of this citation, flat highway patrol has completed the investigation into this matter. thank you. i i have a few comments i would like to aechld the fhp is not pursuing any criminal charges in this matter nor is there any testimony or any other evidence to pursue any additional charges of any kind other than the charge of careless driving. after reviewing the evidence available to us and in consultation with the office of state attorney, it was determined that there was insufficient evidence available to issue a subpoena for any additional medical information that might exist in this case.
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there are no claims of domestic violence by any individual. we will not answer any questions today. we believe these comments and our crash investigation report will speak for themselves. we will not conduct additional press conferences or interviews. a copy of the crash investigation report is a matter of public record and will be finalized a available to members of the media at noon tomorrow for $10. additionally, a supplemental package of all postcrash photographs taken by fhp will be available as a matter of public record for a fee of $105 and that's per statute. media representatives wishing to obtain these documents in person may contact the florida highway patrol office located here at 133 south sim marin boulevard, suite a, in orlando. media representatives wishing to maintain these documents via e-mail should complete a
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certification form attesting to your he willbility as a member of the media and credit card information to facilitate payment. both forms should be returned to the florida department of highway and safety motor vehicles headquarters in tallahassee via the fax number at 850-617-5108. the department will e-mail the requested information to the requester as soon as payment and the order which the request is received. thank you. >> thing on thing i would like to say, despite the celebrity status of mr.ed woulds, the florida highway patrol has completed its investigation in the same professional manner it strives to complete each traffic crash investigation, although our approach may vary depending upon the circumstances. mr. woods' status it in no way impacted our conclusion.
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>> he basically gets a traffic tick that's could result in a $164 fine and four points on his driving record. no criminal charges against tiger woods or his wife elynn there you have it, what they are saying is a conclusion of their investigation. david? >> it is not a surprise, but the fact that they tried not to subpoena the medical information, they had insufficient evidence, that seems a little bit strange, so that seems a little bit, jay fahey, a former fellow prosecutor. jay what do you make of the news and do you make of their decision to not essentially approve this any further than, as tamron said, beyond the traffic ticket? >> i think that is a smart and wise thing to do at the end of the day. let's assume for the moment that there was a domestic violence. it sun likely that he is going to complain about his wife. she is not going to admit to it,
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so, there's no way they could prove that theoretically, if some of the medical injuries consistent with scratching or punching owe pested to a car accident there might be a tiny bit of a case, but at the end of the day that case didn't going any were. >> i was going to say what is the burden, when law enforcement comes upon any scene and say in this one, somebody driving without shoes, no blood on the steering wheel or in the car where you would think there would be some if they were injured that way, i mean what is the burden on investigators before they actually take this further than beyond a traffic ticket? >> they -- if there was any indication that he was somehow on drugs or on alcohol or -- and then they would have a duty perhaps to take blood. most xrurs dictions, that is done by a court order, could have taken blood to see if he was, again, taking some sort of illegal substance or alcohol, from all the reports that i have heard, there was no alcohol involved and i have also heard reports that he had been taking -- may have been taking some painkillers but a because of different medical things he
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had been going through. but at the end of the day, they would have had to get a search warrant to get the hospital recordses as to blood. the hospital most likely took blood, someone goes unconsciously to a hospital for the hospital to find out what's going on and even to protect themselves, they take blood and analysis was probably done of that blood, i would assume and maybe there were painkillers in it, maybe there weren't painkillers in it, but in order for the state now to go in and get a search warrant to get those blood records, they have to show, they have to have probable cause to believe some sort of crime was committed. they cannot show he was on drugs or appeared to be on drugs and they have -- they don't have a prima facie case to show that there may have been a domestic violence. whatever they think it occurred, a judge is not going to sign a search warrant for blood or hospital records unless there is some indication that a crime occurred, probable cause to believe a crime occurred.
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i have a question. if this were opposite, tiger woods had been reported that he was the person chasing his wife with a golf club and some of the other things that have been said about elynn woods, do you think they would have been more aggressive in pursuing this? >> they may have been. but again, we don't even have anybody chasing anybody with this thing. it is more she's at the scene, he's at the scene. she has a golf club. >> seeking the evidence to find out what had happened, been more aggressive if this was -- >> if it was reverse, i don't think so unless elin complains herself. in most jurisdictions, police come onto a scene and it appears domestic violence occurs, perpetrated by the man or woman, the police have a duty to arrest but they have to be able to articulate that there were injuries there even if they didn't see the particular injuries. they don't have that here. >> jay fahey, thank you very much. great talking with you about this. breaking news this one, david. >> tamron, sounds like this story is essentially over unless there is a big, dramatic unexpected development. turning to the big picture today, months of deliberations are finally over and president
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obama is now ready to reveal his new strategy for the war in afghanistan. in just a few hours, he will deliver a prime time address from the united states military academy at west point. president obama will outline his plans to send around 30,000 more u.s. troops to the war zone. that will bring the total number of american troops in afghanistan to more than 100,000. in tonight's address, president obama is expected to discuss the mission, the end game and the cost of the war. on msnbc's morning joe, white house press secretary robert gibbs emphasized the importance of racheting up the capabilities of afghan security forces. >> what the president will tonight announce is an accelerated strategy to go after al qaeda and its extremist allies, accelerate the training of afghan national security forces. had willth will not be nation building this is not an open-ended commitment what we are doing is putting forth a comprehensive strategy and end game in afghanistan. >> this morning, president obama held a one-hour video conference
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call with afghanistan president hamid karzai to discuss the war and the u.s. troop increase before the president leaves for west point this evening. he will address a bipartisan group of congressional leaders, that is been an hour from now, where the president will lay out the details of his plan. former vice president dick cheney slammed president obama in an interview with politico. politics, of course, at play as well. nbc news chief white house correspondent chuck todd joins us live from west point, richard engel joins us live from afghanistan. richard, let's first start with you, given robert gibbs and indication this is going to rely heavily on quickly giving more responsibility to the afghan security forces, can they hand that will? are they ready for that? >> they certainly are not ready for that. and i think the plan is not to
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quickly give more responsibility to the afghan security forces, but to quickly try and build up and train the afghan security force forc forces a whole new strategy has to be put in place to train the afghan police widely seen as corrupt. many police officers and you hear this time and time again, are police officers during the day and then taliban at night. so, there is quite a bit of work that needs to be done before the afghan security forces are even close to taking over responsibility, just according to one afghan commander i spoke to only one in ten of his men are literate, they can read and wrichl there is a long way to go. >> chuck todd, in at dig to the them of trying to get the afghan security forces trained as quickly as possible, take us
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through the other themes that we can expect to hear from the president tonight. >> well, i think tonight is almost a persuasion speech, david, because, look, we know what he is going to do he is essentially accepting general mcchrystal's troop assessment number. he needed about 40,000 and when you put together the 30,000 u.s. troops, the 5 to 7,000 additional nato troops and even a couple thousand of afghan troops that richard was talking become the ones that are capable of being a part of a security team, at least now, that gives mcchrystal everything he needs. what the president's going to talk about tonight is the speed of all. this and in many ways, maybe the last -- it may be an acknowledgment on the president's part this is the last best chance to get this done and so they are going to talk about this 18-month window, david, where it is, you know, by the summer of 2011, if this surge is working the way they want, so they want all of these 30,000 additional troops and the
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additional 8 to 10 of international troops i was described, in by the end of june of 2010 and by the summer of 2011, there is such progress of training of afghans for the afghan army, they can take over security in more and more province, as they stand up we stand down and the president it sounds like the goal of this administration to start pulling back some of these troops by the summer of 2011 it is a pretty ambitious effort as far as the speed is concerned but i think this is where the politics gets involved, where you have a lot of -- particularly liberals in the democratic party in congress who are very nervous about this idea of escalation and how i think they have won him over is this with this speed argument, hurry up and get in, hurry up and get out. >> chuck, what about the political vulnerability, if it was such a need to hurry up, what took three months to try to
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figure this out? >> well in all fairness and richard can describe this better, you know, we are not in a time where you would be able to put in a lot of troops, i believe because of the weather. so there is some argument there. what mcchrystal wanted was over, i believe, a three-year period. so, there is going to be, i think the administration would push back and say, hey, we are actually speeding up the timetable of getting these troops in so this, the entire 30,000 troops would get in there faster frankly than what general mcchrystal originally asked for, but i think richard would be able to describe when exactly is a good time for these troops? some of them -- most might not be able to get in until after the winter. >> richard, let's start right there talk to us about the timing as far as the troops coming in, when is the best time in secondly, describe the atmosphere there details coming out and heard chuck todd talking about the 18-month window the obama administration hopes to achieve things by is that realistic?
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search it realist sic a very difficult question to answer now. many of the troops have been frustrate it had has been taken so long. they have been watching the situation on the ground tee tear orrate week by week, month by month. this last summer was the deadliest yet in this eight-year war. so, there was a sense among not only the enlisted men but also the offices that a decision had take place. this is the last chance, not another surge aft. they are but they do believe unless they got this opportunity, the chance, at least to try and put the situation right on the ground, there would have been a great sense of frustration among the troops. when is the best time to bring them in? if you ask the troops on the ground, right away. they need this help. the weather is an obstacle but still planes that fly, there are
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still helicopters that come in. that is not something that the u.s. military cannot overcome. nbc's richard engel, foreign correspondent in afghanistan. nbc's chuck todd at west point in new york, thank you both. we appreciate it. all of you, of course can watch the president's afghan strategy speech live tonight from the military academy at west point right here on msnbc. coverage starts at 8:00 eastern time. david, we have got some breaking news from our partners at cnbc. ge, general electric and comcast have agreed on a deal for joint ownership of nbc universal, the parent company of msnbc obviously. this deal was supposed to be complete almost a month ago but it has happened, according to cnbc. the deal is done and ge/comcast, joint ownership of nbc universal has been complete. and this, of course, included the previous partnership with vivendi, the sale of their portion or ownership or the company as exchange in this.
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we will continue to physical low the breaking news on this cnbc is reporting the deal between ge and comcast joint ownership of nbc universal has been complete. and tamron, some more breaking news now from ohio. a registered sex offender who police say was living with ten bodies, ten dead bodies faces murder charges. anthony sowell faces 11 counts of aggravated murder as well as other charges including kidnapping, assault and rain charges. police found ten bodies and a skull in sowell's cleveland home. investigators searched the house after a woman says sowell attacked her back in september. prosecutors say they do expect to seek the death penalty for sowell. we will have more news after. this you are watching "the big picture." introducing fast crystal packs. a new way from alka-seltzer plus to... get cold and flu relief in a taste-free, fizz-free powder. alka-seltzer plus.
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now to the new developments
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today involving that virginia couple, tamron who are accused of crashing last week's white house state dinner. this morning, they spoke out publicly for the first time. >> yeah, david, it was an exclusive interview the "today" show, tarik and michaela salahi insist they were not pranksters or gate crashers. >> we were invited, not crashers. and there suspect anyone that would have the audacity or the poor behavior to do that. the white house is the most -- it is the house and no one would do there. >> who invited you. >> matt one of the thing wers doing is working closely with the secret service and their internal investigation. respect everything they do. >> respecting their time line and working -- working their time line and we want to get through that process.
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>> well, the salahis able to greet president obama at the state dinner describe themselves as shocked and devastated and say they have been misunderstood. however, on msnbc's "morning joe" press secretary robert gibbs noted when you don't have an invite to the white house, there is no misunderstanding, you are not allowed inside. gibbs also spoke about the obamas reaction to this. safe to say that he was angry, that michelle was angry. i got to tell you, so is the secret service. so, look, those guys do a tremendous job protecting the president and his family. we are tremendously fortunate to have the best security in the world and we are anxious to see what their investigation turns up. >> joining us now, jason horowitz, style reporter for the "washington post." jason, thanks for joining us. the salahi avoided matt's question about how or what proof they have to show they are invite. with what would they have, a paper invite, e-mail confirmati confirmation, how would they prove this? >> according to some of our sources close to the salahis
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they have a correspondent with a pentagon official that they think, anyway, shows that they were, if not invited, then at least encouraged to come. it is unclear what these e-mails say. we haven't seen them. the secret service has possession of them now. >> so, obviously then, the secret service if these e-mails are their ace in the hole, their proof that the secret service has seen them, they know whether or not these people prin is righted on that e-mail? >> right. and i mean, even if these -- they were not invited, according to the guest list. i mean that is always important to remember. >> but if this e-mail somehow between and that official was michelle jones. >> jones. >> if that e-mail says, yeah, come on or you're clear, if that -- if it says that and we have no indication that it does, the secret service knows one way or the other, so what's the holdup in letting everyone else know by now? >> they are conducting an investigation, make sure they don't leave any hole uncovered, rocks, all that stuff. they want to make sure that they have this thing down cold. so, they are interviewing
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everybody. congress is also trying to get to the bottom of it. so the most important thing is, of course, security of the president. that is why everyone is taking this so seriously. there's a lot of kind of sensational element of it with the couple but this matters because they got to the president. >> i think most people get that you look at how close she was to the president and quite understand that this is a security issue and not one for some reality program, at least for the most of us. but with that said, will anyone lose their job with the seriousness of this? i think we have been asking this question from the beginning. is somebody gonna get fired? >> we don't know yet. if there is, in fact, an e-mail from someone within the white house, then there is absolutely no indication right now that there is any such e-mail, sure, i can imagine that that person might be held responsible for someone else, some other person in the administration saying please come on over, you are invited. but right now, there is no indication that there is no indication of anything like that ms. jones who-had an e-mail
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correspondence saying no way did she ask them to come or let them feel that they were invited. quickly, as this investigation continues, do we know if any changes have been made so far to make sure it doesn't happen again? >> right now, we don't know what new procedures the secret service is considering, but the secret service is taking it very, very seriously and sure enough doesn't want this to happen again. jason, thank you very much for your time. jason horowitz with the "washington post." thank you. coming up, is it in the holiday spirit to check kids' immigration status before you give them a toy at a toy drive? >> that is today's crossing the line and it's a good one. you are watching "the big picture." the honey-baked bunches! the magic's in the mix. my favorite part? eating it. honey bunches of oats. taste the joy we put in every spoonful. honey bunches of oats. we call the bunches in honey bunches of oats the prize in the box. well, now there's a prize inside the prize. pecans! pecans! baked into crunchy oat bunches.
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that's everything to us. (announcer) don't wait. talk to your doctor about aricept. just ahead, how police tracked down an accused cop killer in seattle and how they hope to find those who helped him hide from justice. and the military view on president obama's surge in afghanistan. do military people really
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i'm eddest we are your cnbc market wrap. the dow is down 130 points higher, the s & p 500 and nasdaq also stronger by close to 1.5%. general electric and comcast agreed to a deal for joint ownership of nbc universal. sources telling cnbc the deal is done, nothing left to do now but process the paperwork for viv vendee's 20% stake in nbc universal. agreement expected to be announced thursday. pending home sales rose a ninth straight month in october. signed purchase agreements were up 3.7% in october. that's the highest level in three years.
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analysts were looking for them to fall. and oil prices today are higher as the dollar is weaker. oil up more than a buck right now, settling at $78 a barrel. that is it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. welcome back, i'm david shuster live in washington. >> i'm tamron hall live in new york. right now in the big picture, a violent end to an intense manhunt in washington state. the man suspected of killing four police officers in lakewood, washington, was shot and killed by police 35 miles away in seattle. authorities say maurice clemmons was carrying a handgun taken from one of the officers ambushed in that coffee shop on sunday a seattle officer reportedly recognized clemmons near a stolen car early this morning. >> he ordered the person to stop. he ordered the person to show his hands. that person would not show his hands. and also again to runaway
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counterclockwise around the vehicle. the officer again told him to stop. he wouldn't stop. the officer fired several rounds, took the person into custody. >> police say clemmons died shortly after being shot. he was already seriously wounded by one of the four officers killed on sunday. the bodies of those four lakewood police officers were transported in a solemn procession this afternoon from the medical examiner's office to a funeral home a memorial for the officers is planned next tuesday at the tacoma dome. 20,000 people are actually expected to attend. more now on today's shooting of the suspected cop killer from nbc's george lewis in seattle. >> reporter: it was about 2:30 this morning here on this street in seattle. a policeman was making a routine patrol when he saw a car that he knew to be stolen. it had been reported stolen earlier. he stopped. the car's engine was still running and he saw maurice clemmons. he told clemmons to put out his hands and stop but klemm.sdidn't
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obey orders. he began circling around the car. at that point, police say the patrolman shot clemmons and he died from his gunshot wounds. on his body was a gun, a service weapon taken from one of the four dead policemen in the sunday shootout at the coffee shop in lakewood. clemmons apparentlist was wounded in that shootout he had a bullet hole right here on his body. it had been crudely taken care of, patched up with cotton balls and duct tape. now police are rounding up people who may have been helping clemmons elude them. they say they have four people in custody, two due to be arraigned today. they say they will have six or seven by the end of day today. >> nbc's george lewis. thank you. there is ongoing political fallout of of this story for
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former arkansas governor mike huckabee, a leading contend for the 2012 presidential nomination. huckabee approved the parole board's recommendation to release maurice klemmens in 2000, much earlier than what the convict's sentence called for. it was also against the wishes of prosecutors. at the time, clemmons was serving a sentence of more than 100 years for burglary and robbery charges. huckabee spoke about the decision and the mounting criticism today on the radio on the "joe scarborough show." >> they looked a that the record that i saw nine years ago, they would have seen a 16-year-old kid commit crimes for which normally there would have been a few years. and if he had been white or up and middle class with a good lawyer, gotten probation, a fine and some counseling but because avenues young black kid, he got 108 years. people don't go to prison for murder on those kind of charges. i reduced the sentence, joe to 47 years, not to time served and he still had to make parole with
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the parole board, not with me. >> huckabee says that despite claims to the contrary, there were no protests at the time over his granting clemency to clemmons. in today's closeup, will sending approximately 30,000 more u.s. troops to afghanistan turn the tide of the war? >> president obama's new strategy is expected to call for transferring security responsibility to the afghans and by july 2011 a transition from american-led come about the to afghan-led coafghan-led comb. we should focus on building the afghan security forces, not sending more troops a newspaper was told. nbc's "andrea mitchell reports," chief of staff for the national security staff spoke about the u.s. strategy in afghanistan. >> we recognize frankly that this is now into the eighth year of this war and the american people have made a lot of investment there. that's why we want to make very
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clear to the afghans that we expect progress very quickly. we are investing additional resources here in the short-term to create the space to make that progress and we believe this is the strategy that will make it work. >> joining us live is nbc news military analyst and retired army general barry mccaffrey. general mccaffreyer is was on the board of directors to dinah corps international to provide support to u.s. bases in afghanistan and also joining us, retired army colonel jack jacobs. thank you for joining us. general, i want to start with you, talking about the end game, important for the american people to hear about this but when those troops get on the ground in afghanistan what, is their immediate mission? there are reports they will go to the most dangerous areas of that country? >> the south, kandahar and helmand provinces are in a huge battle. the brits and canadians have been undermanned down there taken very heavy casualties. marines going down south and army forces. they have got to in the short run, protect the population,
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particularly in places like kandahar i which is the spiritual home of the pashtun insurgency. >> we just got this in from reuters, the obama administration expects iran to play a role in helping to stabilize afghanistan and pakistan. again something coming from righters a if you minutes ago. help us make heads or tails of this. >> well it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. iran's got its own battles to fight. and at the moment -- and from time to time, it does actually assist insurgents in various places in that region. as a matter of fact, iran itself is a destabilizing influence and has not been very, very helpful for compliant trying to bring it into line it doesn't make sense the united states will get iran to do anything at all thank you, but we have been successful in getting russia on our side eith
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either. >> how much needs to be in the form of billions of dollars of aid to build up the civilian infrastructure and is that money getting through? >> i think what you will hear the president say tonight, clearly we got to understand the corrupt mechanism of the afghan government so we got to get this aid to them from the bottom up, not the top down, i think the other thing is in the short run, additional forces will be essential to provide some level of security without which nothing can happen. in the longer run, the only thing we have to do is build the afghan army and the police, which are even a bigger challenge. >> and to that point, colonel, david, asking about the brute force or the manpower being the heavy solution right now, at les what we are going to hear from the president, but you have some who are asking, for example, would work in iraq is that you negotiated. is there a possibility that we might see negotiations between
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the taliban and nato forces? >> i think you are going to see that wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that isn't taking place behind-the-scenes right now. don't forget, about half of the forces going there to afghanistan are going to be those who are going to help to provide the infrastructure, air felds and roads, that are essential to empower the local tribal chieftains, to improve the lot of the of a again people and to bring the taliban, who are on the fence back into the fold on the side of the afghan people. i think that kind of stuff is going on right now as we speak. >> general mccaffrey and colonel jacobs, thank you for joining us with your incredible insight. keep it on msnbc after the address at 8 p.m. watch keith olbermann, rachel mad dough, chris matthews and ed schultz at midnight. tam report, up next, the first day of voting on amendments that could change the
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69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. welcome back n today's making their case, the health care debate rages in the senate, day two. despite divisions within their own party, the public option, abortion language and costs certainly at the top. >> right now, votes are expected to begin at some point this afternoon. looking at tom harkin of iowa. again, these are amendments that would shape the $848 billion bill. one of the amendments they are discussing today is one by john mccain that would strip out the proposed cuts to medicare. more on that in just a second. but first, the new "usa today"/gallup poll finds 44% of americans want their members of congress to vote in favor of a health care reform bill while 49% want them to vote against it. so, where is all of this headed in the senate?
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here to make their case, liberal programmer, fez shack clear, research editor and director at progress.org and conservative blogger liz maher and former communications director for the republican national committee. liz, start with you, proposal by john mccain today, strip away the cuts in the democratic legislation but during the presidential campaign, john mccain, as part of his health care proposal proposed cuts to medicare and an independent group said it would be over $1 trillion in cuts. isn't this the very sort of thing you say one thing during a presidential campaign, you say another thing on the floor of the senate that essentially causes credibility problems for conservatives and republicans? >> well, i think you could make the same case with regard to a lot of democrats though, because i definitely remember during the course of last year's presidential campaign, of course i was working on that we did see attacks coming from liberals regarding proposals to reform
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medicare. and so now you have got a situation where people who previously opposed any sort of changes to medicare funding are coming out and advocating for pretty steep cuts, i think that cuts both ways. that is politics. that is politics. again, fez, to the point, john mccain's amendment is not expected to pass. democrats are still going to have to do this largely on their own. isn't this having the desired effect, even if mccain's amendment doesn't pass, people call it hypocrisy, stalling down the process and the long ter takes, the more it hurts the democrats, right? >> i don't think it will take much longer. hopefully a vote before christmas. i think the most important news we have had is the congressional budget report, which shows the larger majority of americans see their prop yums go down. i think we have had months, david, had to debunk one argument after another from republicans, death panels, whether it was you lie being scream ted president, concerns over the deficit, mammogram screamings, what of it was, had to be dough bunked one after
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another. last remaining bullet republicans thought you had, your costs go up, premiums see an increase, that has been knocked down. i don't think there are any reasons left to oppose health care reform at that point. >> when you look at some of these numbers what, the american people say they want of congress is it again back to what we discussed earlier about the democrats maybe not selling and presenting some of these things such as the information about premiums going down or staying the same? especially the part about the premiumsing going down? >> absolutely right, tamron, i agree there needs to be a better job of telling the story to the american public. the report just came out yesterday, there has got to be some time to explain this to the american public. i think that is one of the things you and i and some of the others are trying to get the facts out there on the public health insurance option, those critics of it, should take a close look at the congressional budget office report. what it says is those who needed coverage the most are going to be able to afford it at a lower cost and that it will bring down the cost for those who have
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private health care. so for those who are dpefrsd of the private market, they should actually be defenders of the public health insurance option because it solidifies those -- brings down costs for those who are in the private market. >> liz? >> well, we will see. i mean if they actually do succeed in getting a public onning passed, and i highly doubt they are going to, it seems to me pretty clear that a lot of moderate democrats have just as big a problem with that frankly as a lot of republicans do we will see. i think it is all very well and good to talk about estimates and what may happen with costs. incidentally, just to fez's point this will bring down costs for everybody, that is not actually what the report says in any way, shape or form. >> costs for everybody, but let's be clear. the people who are going to see costs go up that is roughly one tenth. those are the people who have the best situation with health care. >> 14 million people. >> independent, more following pay more for their health peop >> who are more willing to pay more for their health care. >> the people most likely to
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rely on buying plans are the people who right now are probably most concerned about being priced out of the market. and the fact of the matter is, you're talking about roughly 14 million people. pretty much anybody who is in the market for independent insurance, who's going to have to buy it individual and who earns more than $45,000, who's going to see their costs, their premiums, actually, going up -- >> liz -- liz, in the individual market, people are first going to have an option now. they don't currently have an option. they'll have presentable options and people will get subsidies. and because they'll receive some subsidies, they'll receive a better quality health care plan than they currently have. they're not going to be kicked out of their health care plan because of their pre-existing conditions -- >> the numbers i just cited do not apply to people getting the subsidies. the numbers i just cited are people ineligible -- >> but to be absolutely clear, when you talk about the people who the cbo says the costs will rise, you're talking about less than 10% of people who have insurance now. everybody else, the cbo says
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their costs are going to drop. >> actually -- >> in any case -- >> -- it says that that may, it doesn't say they will. >> fair enough. let's all be clear, when republicans or democrats want to cite the cbo, it's not a statement of fact, it's just a cbo projection. >> -- called it a cbo god at one point. >> faiz, liz, thank you so much, we appreciate it. >> up next, david, should a charity check immigration status of children before giving them toys? we're talking about needy kids. it's our crossing the line. and later in the show, new video that appears to show a world leader smacking a 10-year-old kid. does the tape tell the entire story, though? going green matters and so does saving money. here are ways to do both.
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use rechargeable batteries. the less you use disposables, the more money you'll save. installing a low flow shower head saves water costs by over 50%. and save money and use less gas by keeping your car tuned up. a new air filter can improve gas mileage by 10%. for more green information, go to environment.msnbc.com. let the all-new campbellskitchen.com help bring your family to the table this holiday. from timeless favorites like campbell's green bean casserole
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welcome back. you tell me if it's crossing the line. some houston area charities are making a list and checking it twice to see whether children are legally in this country. several programs in texas providing christmas gifts for needy children are requiring at least one member of the household to be a u.s. citizen. others are asking for proof of income or are relying on churches and schools to suggest recipients. the salvation army and a charity affiliated with the houston fire department are among those considering looking at immigration status and asking for birth certificates or social security cards for the children. one group said, "it is not our desire to turn anyone down. those kids are not responsible if they are here illegally. it is the parents' responsibility, but the idea of a charity turning away children because of decisions made by their parents, it's left a bd
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cha feeling in some activists mouth. "usually people target the adults because the adults made the decision to migrate. where the children are justing brought through no fault of their own." again, the groups say they don't want to punish the kids, but are they? is it crossing the line? you tell me. let me what you think about this one. twitter me or david all day. tamron, it's almost 4:00 on the east coast and three hours away from one of the most important speeches of the obama president presidency so far. he'll try to sell his goals to the american people in a nationwide prime-time speech. we'll look at the pressure mr. obama faces from both the political left and the political right. plus, a live report on today's breaking news for the tiger woods crash. he'll be cited for careless driving, but will not face any criminal charges. and more from that skrooexce
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